Eye witness- reports are a mixture of:
observation,
interpretation,
expectation,
explanation,
hearing other peoples explanation,
and memory-mistakes.
Mostly a video recording or voice recording is better.
But of course, it is necessary to gather as many eye -and ear- witnesses as possible.
If you could get them from impartial people, that would be the best.
But in the separatist area you will not find neutral people, and if so, will they dare to speak out?
Yet, these witnesses do not look like they are inventing stories.
Anyway, here I have a few eye-witnesses on video.
There must be many many more ( please send me the links ), but I just did not spend time on them before.
NOTE: If you go to Google Earth and search for: Polahiivka, you will see Torez south and Hrabovo north of it. If you have a second screen you can look immediately 'where we are' .
For now I have only two sources. They are:
1. Three Women in a little village, very near to Hrabove ( Grabovo) ( Interview by a Russian BBC journalist.)
The witnesses say that they could see what happened. ( Were there no clouds? Can they see 10 km far in the air? )
Note: The BBC refused to broadcast the documentary!
2. Three men in a A Russian-made video, not pretending to be neutral.
At 2.29-2.50 miutens one witness.
At 3.14- 3.35 two other witnesses.
Note: I am not sure about their location.
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1. The BBC documentary.
here you will find the complete story, on Global Research:
I only use the eyewitness declarations. ( In the video between 30 sec and 55 sec.)
Eyewitness #1: There were two explosions in the air. And this is how it broke apart. And [the fragments] blew apart like this, to the sides. And when …
Eyewitness #2: … And there was another aircraft, a military one, beside it. Everybody saw it.
Eyewitness #1: Yes, yes. It was flying under it, because it could be seen. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one.
Eyewitness #3: There were sounds of an explosion. But they were in the sky. They came from the sky. Then this plane made a sharp turn-around like this. It changed its trajectory and headed in that direction [indicating the direction with her hands].
When the BBC reporter goes to the village where the Buk that took down the MH167 was launched, according to a declaration and video from 'Kiev', she did not find any trace of a Buk launch.
But she met a Separatist commander who had an interesting story: ( Video: 3 min- 4 min.)
Sergey Godovanets, Commander of the Militia of the city of Snezhnoye (google: Snizhne) : They use these civilian aircraft to hide behind them. It is only now that they stopped flying over us – but, usually, civilian aircraft would always fly above us. And they hide [behind them]. [The experience in] Slavyansk had demonstrated that they would fly out from behind a civilian aircraft, bomb away, and then hide, once again, behind the civilian aircraft and fly away.
Olga Ivshina, BBC: The commander of the local militia emphasizes that they have no weaponry capable of shooting down a jet fighter [flying] at a significant height. However, he says that if such weaponry were to appear, they would have tried to.
Sergey Godovanets: If we know that it is not a civilian aircraft, but a military one, then – yes.
Olga Ivshina, BBC: So, could the Boeing have been shot down by the militias that had mistaken it for a military aircraft? There is as yet no unequivocal confirmation of either this or any other version [of what took place]. The international experts are just beginning their work with the information obtained from the crashed airliner. It now appears that it is difficult to overstate the importance of this investigation. Olga Ivshina, BBC.
2. Three men in a A Russian-made video
Here is the video: ( Russian tv video)
Here is the text that these people spoke. ( I will continue the numbering of the witneeses)
# 4 Witnesses: Man in Black, 30 years old: min. 2.35- 2.50. Location: ?
There were very big explosions on
this side, more than 10. Boom Boom Boom.
Strong. Very strong. The plane, in response, sort of fell.
At first there was this loud ‘Oooh’
sound.
#5 Witness Witnessing in the Russian
village of Kuybyshevo ? This village is 30 km from Torez.
Man, Brown cap, 60 years, from min 3.14- 3.19.
Man, Brown cap, 60 years, from min 3.14- 3.19.
There was an exchange of fire.
Several heavy explosions. I looked, because of the clouds splitting.”
#6 Witness ( also in Kuybyshevo ?) Man
60 years, glasses min. 3.20- 3.33.
I heard a whistle. In Torez too, from
the direction of the Koshyelevka Motor Depot.
Somewhere, really far away, there
was the First Shell. The First explosion heard there, only afterwards there was
the din ( a loud, unpleasant and prolonged noise) of the falling plane.
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To study the case from this angle ( witnesses, maps) is new for me. I will try to make my own 'mental map'.
I will use Google Earth and the spelling of the villages's names that Google uses.
Let me take Torez as the central point.
Let me take the hypothesis that the 'impact' happened above Torez.
#6 seems to say that the explosion was heard to come from Torez.
On the map you will see the Russian bordervillage, spelled Kuybyshevo, where #5 and #6 were standing, if my interpretation of the Russian doc. is correct. 30 km from Torez. (Or were they standing somewhere else?)
We know that the debris of the plane was found very near to Grabovo, spelled by Google Earth as Hrabove. This is 14 km north of Torez.
( Remember that the general Markushiv said that the plane had gone 14 km off its route. Did he mean the 14 after first impact, when the plane turned north-east? Or was the deviation already 14 km at the moment of first impact? Was the plane led to the location where attacking it would be easier, or where chances were higher that the blame could be put on the opponenent ?)
Very preliminary interpretation of these witnesses:
The launching of a Buk gives an enormous noise, to be heard far around.
So far I have heard no witness telling about it. The female BBC journalst went to search for a witness in the area that was mentioned by Kiev as the launching place, but nobody had seen or heard a Buk -launch.
So:
It is not impossible that a bomb was aboard, and that it was detonated at the right moment so that it would fall in the Separatist area. Maybe even more bombs were aboard. (#4: "Boom Boom Boom" )
Let's suppose that the first and main impact ( jetplane-attack/ Buk-rocket/ bomb explosion in luggage room) happened when the plane was above Torez, then would it be possible for people in Kuybyshevo to hear is, 30 km away ?
It depends on the wind. With a strong wind: no. With a wind going other that south-east: no
But with windpower 2 or 3 going to the south-east: yes.
Note: #1, #2, #3 and #4 all say that they saw the plane.
the first 3 are interviewed in Ukraïne. About #4 we do not know where he was interviewed.
Witnesses #5 and #6 did not see the plane, but they heard the sounds. This is compatible with the fact that they were ( probably) located in Kuybyshevo, 30 km away from Torez.
#1 and # 2 saw the plane breaking apart. They state clearly that there were 2 explosions.
And they are very sure about one fighter plane.They even say: everyone saw it. ( It could be that these women were outside with a few people together, and looked up at the first explosion, and thet this group was very near to the place of impact.
#3 saw the plane, but not immediately at impact. When she heard the explosion, she describes : 'But that was in the sky.' I think this means that she could not see the plane then, yet.
By the time she could see the plane (was she further away than #1 and#2 ? Was there a cloud in her way ?) the jet-fighter was not in the immediate vicinity of MH17 anymore. ( Although it hovered over the area for 4 minutes as general Makushiv said)
#4 saw the plane falling, but he does not mention the jet fighters accompanying it.
#3 says that the plane, after impact, changed its course. This is compatible with what the Russian Radar shows us: that the plane went north-east. ( Note: Hrabovo is directly North of Torez).
NB: Looking again to the #1 and #2 I see that they are villagers very near to Hrabove, where the palne came down. And also they have heard the frist impact. This could mean that after impact the plane did make a turn ( #3) , but the distance coverend was not 14 km.
So now I think that the plane was already 14 km off track ( as the general said) before impact. Why ?
So Torez is not the place of first impact, but somewhere halfway between Torez and Hrabove.
If you go to Google Earth and search for: Polahiivka, you will see Torez south and Hrabovo north of it.
NOTE: There is another witness report in the BBC doc. ( Sergey in Snezhnoye, google: Snizhne, 9 km eats of Torez.)
But he does not speak about the MH17 crash. So I did not use his info here. But what he says is important: 'The Ukraïnan army does use airliners as a human shield. That's how they killed 11 people in my village. They fly too high for us to shoot them down. But if we had tho good equipment we would of course shoot them down, if we can avoid downing the airliners'.
( On 18 june a video was placed on youtube,also about this practice and about the danger: ( Elena)
Note: Somebody wrote: it is posssible that the Separatists tried to shoot down a Ukraïnian jet fighter, but then their rocket missed the jet and went past it and by heat seeking guidance came to hit the airliner. This would be the classic 'dead by mistake'.
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Some loose information, not witnesses:
A video, posted on the day of the crash: The Ukraïnian minister declares that they have a tape of a conversation of two rebels, where they say that they downed the airliner.
1. This was only hours after the crash. But OK: that ìs possibel.
2. The tapes were tampered with. There is a discontinuïty a) Why would they do this? b) hàt is really fast working ! So fast that maybe only the conspirators had the time to do it.
Note: This video was put on youtube one day before the crash, as is noterd very often. But I read that this can be due to a youtube bug.
Note: It was cloudy in the area of Hrabovo, when the plane came down. But I think that looking straight upwards it was possible to look through the clouds.
--
A video from a man who lives 50 meter from where the plane came down. 'People fell from the sky,from out of the clouds. On the roofs. ( Video)
--
I did not like to look at the graphic images before, but I did it now, and I will keep the link here.It may give information later, if a question arises. ( Graphic )
The story about 'bodies without blood, and 'strong smelleing, already decomposing bodies' is just one of the mysteries that happen in cases like this. Strelkov ( commander separartists) received this information from more than one source, so it mayvery well have looked like that. But why wopuld there be dead bodies in there? And: these bodies DNA will be checked,and Idon't doubt that they will match with the passengers list,so the people were alive at noon 17 july.
I suppose thatsome bodies froze when exposed to the very cold air after the impact opened the planes sides, and that this kind of cluthered the blood., There must be simple explanations for this.
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The soldier holding up the teddybear. Is he crying and thinking about his 5 year old daughter that he did not see for weeks? That he may not see ever again, as every week lots of his friends die?
No. He is not. I read about him in a Dutch newspaper. I do not care to remember what the journalist wrote, but it was evil. Very evil.
Also: how can it be that brittish journalists, mr Warwick tells us that on 19 july all the valuables were gone, and that 6 days later Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, says: Mr. Bociurkiw said his monitoring group, which has now spent more time at the site than any other, had not seen any. The Malaysians said they had seen valuables in the fields untouched, he noted, including a bottle of duty-free perfume, auto parts, backpacks full of belongings, a watch and some jewelry.
Update: Remember the 'rough soldier impolitely holding up the teddy bear. Here he is: below.
Remember the soldier stealing the golden ring: Meet him here. ( Video,2,35 min)
ource: Moon of Alabama.
My standpoint is this: very probably there was looting. There is always looting in cases like this. Little or much,we don't know. People are people. But: here the looting-mantra is used as a tool to demonise the Separatists and even Putin! It's all his will: that these victims were looted. ( How crazy can you get? Much more crazy than I thought a week ago. That is for sure.)
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There was a lot idiotic info that made it to the Media, but this was at least also funny: ( Howard Stern)
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I don't know what this site wants to say, but I see the same man as my withess #5, and he now stands before the wreckage. Is he Russian living in Kuybyshevo or does he live near Hrabove?
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Telegraph, UK, 18 july: report from the impact area, one day after impact. Some interviews with missile experst. ( Telegraph) --
CNN, july 18. Roszypne ( 5,5 km west of Hrabove) : Bodies fell near the orphanage. also the cocpit of the plane. ===============================
Not important info:
Another point which I like to find on the map is the Russian border town of Tomok or Tomak or Tonok, the place where the plane was going to enter Russia.
It is mentioned by the Russian general where we see the video of radar-images and the MH17 loosing speed (Tonok). At the moment of the accisent, the plane is about 51 km away from Tonok,which is the border place. But if I make a circle around Torez with a radius of 51 km and see where it touches the Russian border, I see no place witrh a name that looks like it. Maybe Tonok is just the name of the Radar installation, somewhere near Millerovo ( 51 km from Torez, and on the border). No idea.
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